I worked my ass off to accomplish what I have. Numerous all nighters, and working to the point of damage to my own body. I am content earning my own wages. I don't deserve anything from anyone else. ~Will Courtier~
I actually support a flat tax, which I suppose could be considered a redistribution of wealth. The trouble is you can't have businesses paying a lot more taxes to do business here in the United States or they'll bail and head to China (faster).
From the tone these arguments sometimes take, that sounds less like a joke than usual! :unibrow: What does deserving have to do with it? When others are in trouble, we will help them out. When we are in trouble, others will help us out. Sadly this is less true in today's society than it was earlier in our history, but it is still true, nonetheless!
Hey, I seriously like to hear why people think the way they think. And sometimes I'm persuaded and change my mind. Not in this particular thread, but it happens. I love the exchange of ideas.
The trick is to understand how they think what they think, and why they think it, in terms that don't have you shouting "TERRORIST!" and trying to call in airstrikes on their house! :evil: If I understand where you're coming from, and you understand where I'm coming from, maybe we can find a spot in the middle that neither of us likes, but both can live with! Democracy in action! O
To be clear, you mean relative to the current system right? Or are you saying it inherently favours the rich?
Both. Under the administration of the past 8 years, with the tax cuts for the higher incomes, we've moved closer to a flat or "fair" tax. So while the current system is a graduated system it's moved away from it's former graduated self. As for being more fair to the rich it goes back to the disposable and living income argument. A flat tax of 20% (which iirc is what is usually cited) would raise the tax rate of lower earners by at least 5-7.5% if not more. (I'm on my iPhone atm so can't look up the US' tax brackets.)
It inherently favors the rich, especially when you sum up the sales taxes, Social Security payments, and other taxes, along with the income taxes. If you add tax breaks, then it tilts further toward the wealthy, who have permanent accountants getting them all the breaks available. Sales taxes, while being a "flat" tax, are particularly regressive, since poorer households spend a higher percentage of their income, while the weathiest couldn't spend all their money if they tried, and thus pay an actually much smaller percentage of their total income on sales taxes. When it comes to taxes, I have a whole bunch of ideas that I will never (if anyone has any sense at all!) be allowed to implement. Here is Goofus' Tax Plan For America: The US Government will no longer collect taxes from the individual! All taxes will be collected locally instead! Local gov't will collect all individual taxes, then pass on the State and Federal tax portions to the State, who will take their section and pass the Federal portion to the Federal Government. Enforcement will be done by the State, with investigative help from the Federal Government! No longer will there be all these different taxes: Sales tax, Property Tax, Social Security Withholding (I don't care what the Gov't says; this is a tax, rather than an insurance payment. SS stopped being "Insurance" a long long time ago.) Just one single income-based semi-flat (with a tax cut-off point for low income) or continuously-curved (instead of having these tax bracket change "bumps") tax rate, which will include Federal, State, and Local tax all in one big lump. No more fees like License or library card fees. This is a form of tax as well, and I'm tired of paying $70 for my yearly license plate renewal at a time where I can barely afford the extra tank of gas in the first place! Multi-State, National, and Multi-National Corporations will be taxed using the same semi-flat or continuously-curved rate by the Federal Government, which is the only institution large enough to keep tabs on large Multi-Nationals. They will pay a single State tax rate based on their total income, which will be divided to every State in which they own assets. There will be one set State tax rate, to prevent the "Wal-Mart effect" of shopping for better tax deals among the States or outsourcing manufacturing to Third-World Countries. State-wide and local businesses won't be taxed by the Federal Government at all. They'll be under the same system as individuals, but will only be paying local and State portions of The Tax.) There is plenty of room to tweak this basic idea of mine, since I know there are huge gaping holes in my framework still...
NEGATIVE! I know people who make less than 30k, and guess what, taxes aren't and won't be holding them back. Somewhere along the line, other variables will be the deciding factor (most usually attitude and vision).
Well, one thing's for sure - most of you are against redistribution, and 0% of those who are for it want the money from me. I'm putting away the sniper rifle for now...
Welp, I make under 30k a year and pay nothing in taxes after my refund check gets calculated in. I think this is fundamentally unfair. But, you know, I'm delusional for not wanting favored treatment since my chances of being wealthy are so slim. Everyone has the same chance to get ahead. It's called hard work, and if you do it, you'll find yourself getting somewhere.
lol You must be under 25 because you either have no idea what hard work is or because you think hard work is all it takes to make it. But hey if you would rather have a bigger tax break going to the rich as opposed to yourself then more power to you.
That is debatable and becomes more of a romote possibility as the golden rule evolves to it's inevitable conclusion. you ever wonder why bums are alowed to stand and beg on sttreet corners? Those are the "carrots" held just out of the ordinary persons' reach so that we'll bust our asses without too much complaining.
They talked about that in The Fisher Kind, with Robin Williams and Jeff Bridges. Tom Waits (who played a disabled bum) gave a short speech about how he performed an important function in society:
I'd rather be poor and earn what I have then take a single dollar from the government, you filthy hippy. Hard work is all that it takes; sure there are plenty of people who don't care about it, but if you keep working, you'll find someone who appreciates what you do and you'll thrive. Hard work is all it takes to make it. To think otherwise kind of blows my mind and leads me to believe that people with your mindset are the ones really bringing down the country. btw lol im laughing at you because it makes my argument stronger :/ PS- I don't pay federal tax. Both myself and my girlfriend get more money back then we pay in, and since she has two children and is unmarried, she gets a shitload back. Yeah, that seems right to me; I deserve to get back more than I paid in. Oh wait, I don't, because I'm the same as anyone else.
But he didn't find it...without someone else the demons prevented him. and GRP? Wait twenty years and then comment, see if you get to be one of the dwindling few that still has that attitude. Really, I hope you do.
as an outsider this thread has been an education on U.S. views on economics. I mean that seriously and without being rude. Thank you. That was the serious bit now, let me see I saw 'Means of production' being mentioned but not 'False class consciousness' and the manipulation of the exploited and oppressed workers I feel that both the U.S. and Europe are in the position of having to re-think their positions on the rich and poor. In the U.K. we have ageing population (8,000 people over 100 years old!!!) where our young people are going to have to burden a higher tax regime. Less people, more tax = national health service/benefit system. In the U.K. under 10% of the population own/have about 80% of the wealth in the country. (Wedge help me out here). I think that this won't be much different in most countries. The problem always seems to be that the rich always seem to pay proportionately less tax due to their ability to employ people to reduce their tax burdens, rightfully or wrongfully or they hide behind their business status when having their taxes assessed.
That pretty much sums up the USofA also. Our aged population is growing exponentially and the young workers are dwindleing due to negative population growth. Hispanic, Chinese, Indian populations are exploding so the young workers are available for many many years to come. at nearly 51, I can tell everyone that an aged workforce may be wiser, but production is not going to be competitive enough to compete with the likes of those nations with alot of babies being born. This is a message from Gawd to go out and multiply! :unibrow: Ladies?
