OK, this is fucking outrageous.

So, waterboarding is ok because it's not really torture and they're just being a bunch of wimps. Got it.

I have no issues with this. Did we ever delcare war in Vietnam? No, but does that make it any less of a "war"?

You don't need 400+ old men and women to sign some piece of paper for it to be an "official" war. The shit that these people did and continue to do is, without question, an act of war against this country and everyone in it. We are at war with these extremists in just about every sense of what "war" really means.

You think that those same people wouldn't torture the shit out of a US Serviceman if they caught him? I bet they'd do a whole lot more than waterboarding, which, as mentally painful as it might be, probably doesn't compare to electrocution, amputation, etc., the kinds of things some of these extremists in those other countries might do. And you sure as fuck wouldn't hear about it in the local news or from their leader.

This isn't a regular "war" either. In WWI and WWII and Korea and Vietnam, you had men that were fighting for the survival of their country. In this conflict today, you have a group of people that FUCKING HATE americans and will stop and nothing to hurt them in any way possible. It's not a war to protect oneself, it's a war with the intention of destroying a people. Those radical extremists are no different than Hitler, they just haven't got the means to do what he did. Yet.

Personally, if it were me in charge, I'd be doing more than just waterboarding to those sick bastards. They made their choice with their actions. They deserve to die for the choices they've made and the people they've killed.

Sorry if that came off as attacking anyone's viewpoints. I understand and respect all opinions, but when I think about what those groups did to innocent civilians in the US in 9/11, or what those militants did to the helicopter pilots in Mogadishu in the Black Hawk Down incident, I could really give two fucks what happens to those kinds of people.

You've made my point. Any terrorist knows the US is going to stop......so it's not torture. A US soldier or anyone other than a Muslim, is most likely going to die. You're right, big difference. Where's the outcry?

Do you know who does consider water boarding torture? The US, and they prosecuted the Japanese for such tactics.

Had that event never happen then maybe you would have an valid argument but since we prosecuted people for it there is no justification for us to do it.

Unless you think hypocrisy is ok

I guess we will never know. Hell maybe if Bush attempted to close it and admitted our wrong doing his approval ratings might have been higher.

You also just pointed out exactly why we shouldn't be doing it. If someone feels confident they won't die then you're ultimately never going to get anything out of them.
Not to mention they're not a government. We can't just take down a few top people and the organization collapses. All they do is recruit another crazy asshole to take his place.

We are taught to do what ever is necessary to get a desired outcome, that was predefined by the superiors. But whats annoying is when people (in general) cry about right and wrong way. They only complain when they are hurt, what about the time when others were hurt. No one complain for some one elses suffering, only when they themself are suffering(one way or another), they start to bitch.

Im not religious or a god fearing man. But that one phrase can make a big difference if people truly believe in it and follow it.

You don't go to war and "liberate" a country touting the values of democracy and virtues of a capitalist society and decrying terrorist acts (including torture) as immoral and in humane and then turn around and torture captured opponents yourself.

Or maybe you do but as far as I'm aware this country wasn't founded on
hypocrisy. We didn't declare that all men are created equal and then fight a civil war to expand that idea, or have women fight years of inequality to now be considered equals, to then say equality, justice, and freedom are to be used and invoked only when we see fit.

I haven't made your point. They learned different after Abu Ghraib, and the CIA taught them different, in their secret prisons, and after sending them out to torture-skilled Countries like Pakistan and Egypt. Your breezy assumption about what a local yokel indoctrinated by an extremist group, or an idealogue who believes anything good about America is just Western Propaganda, knows, is unfounded by evidence, as is your equivalence of training simulations to a one-month ordeal that includes more than just 266 waterboardings.

I find that statement a little scary coming from someone who has power and from someone who has sworn to uphold justice and show restraint and indifference in the face of choas.

What fight would that be exactly? Can we get a definition from you? The fight against terrorism? When do we win? When there is no more terrorism left?

This war has no ending and according to your standards this info should never be released. I don't know about you but I demand, no, I expect my government to be responsible and to abide by laws in which we the people have indirectly put in place.

Yeah, gotta go with ivwshane on this. Sinking to their level is the worst thing we could do. At least the government could have renditioned these people to some of our shady allies for the torturing, and made an attempt at saving our national image.

Now, should Obama have released these documents? I dunno. I certainly share his outrage, but the CIA doesn't trust him now. I just think he could have played it a little smarter.

And to me that is the scariest shit ever!! How is it that the CIA is so powerfull that such obvious criminal acts cannot be prosecuted?

I understand Obamas reasoning for doing and handling this the was he is but it's just plain rediculous that he has to tip toe around the subject in fear of retaliation.

That to me is BS!!!

Part of me wants him to open up investigations and start prosecuting everyone involved but the other part of me is scared shitless at what kind of behind the scene things the CIA will start fucking with.

I have a question.

9/11 was a terrible tragedy, it was heinous act of killing lots of innocent civilians. 3,000 people died.

Now why was it universally reviled? Oh yeah, because we live in something called civilization. And here in civilization flying planes into buildings and killing innocent people is a no-no. Guess what else civilized people don't do, Tac. Torture people!

You can't have it both ways; if you think that 9/11 was a morally bad act, then we're placing ourselves on a pedestal above those who committed it. And we are perfectly justified in doing so, as long as we don't stoop to their level. But the minute we do that, and start compromising our principles for pragmatism, then you can't be pissed at them for bombing civilians, since we're no better from their point of view.

And no Tac, before you jump down my throat, I'm not saying waterboarding is the same as killing 3,000 people. But I'm saying that the minute we start down that path, it is an exceedingly slipperly slope. Case in point, the US millitary has definitely killed more than 3,000 Iraqi civilians, so does that mean Iraqi's are justified in kidnapping and torturing our soldiers? I don't think so, but by your logic, you should.

Edit:

I think this will reflect more badly on the previous administration than on the CIA itself?

DEMOCRATZ

Truth.

I agree with both of these statements, but in reality the CIA was doing the bidding of the previous administration. It's that whole "just following orders" thing. Obama could have simply released the information informally and took a shot at the real culprits and left the CIA out of it. In the long run that would have been more in his best interest.

I don't really feel like getting in a point by point debate on this subject, so here is my contribution:

I'll wait till more info is available but wow if it's true!

CIA Watchdog Report Says Detainees Died During Interrogations

And then there's this...........

- Dick Cheney

DRUDGE REPORT: Cheney Calls For More CIA Reports To Be Declassified 2009®

He says we received good intel.

I bet he did. This coming from the guy who made millions using his influence to get Haliburton (a company he has significant investments in) the contract to the Port of Dubai. Ethical and trustworthy, yup.

lol

Did you seriously just quote Dick Cheney?!!! The same guy that said the vice president is not a part of the executive or the legislative branch of government?
The same guy that said the Iraq insurgency is in their last throws (2005)?
The same Cheney that said the Bush administration never sad there was any connection between Iraq and the attacks on 9/11?

Come on tac, not even you can believe a single word this guy says.

He didn't just say it happened, he's on camera stating that he made a formal request to the CIA to declassify other documents showing that we got good intel utilizing waterboarding.

Breaking News | Latest News | Current News - FOXNews.com

It works.

after the 10th time it shoulda been smooth sailing.

Ok let's say torture does/did work.

Are you saying you are ok with it and have no problems with the US using torture even though we prosecuted Japanese soldiers for torturing, specifically, waterboarding?

Are you saying that despite the fact that the US has signed treaties that specifically state that we will not torture, that it doesn't matter because we must protect ourselves by all means even if that means ignoring morals/principles that we agreed to abide by and signed on to?

Is your logic behind this that the outcome justifies the means?
Are you saying that perspective gives us the right to do things like torture and ignore rules/laws we have agreed to?

I'm pretty sure that's the same exact logic terrorist use to justify their attacks on innocent civilians.


If you aren't saying that then help me out because I'm trying to figure you out but I'm having some difficulty.

To me it sounds like your beef with this issue is that you do not think waterboarding is torture, this despite all the standards that we follow and adhere to and expect other nations to adhere to, say otherwise.

Since waterboarding has been classified by the US as torture, torture is therefore illegal.
And since, if I understand your principles correctly, any illegal activities should not be engaged in because they are illegal.

It appears your principles are either conflicted or you are a hypocrite.

As an American it appears your only issue with this subject is not that we torture but that we got caught.

And do you know who else thinks along those lines? Cheaters, con men, murders, in general bad dishonest people.

Now, to be clear, I don't think you are a hypocrite and I don't think you are a bad person, but I do think you have let your emotions overcome logic and it has compromised your principles.

With regards to our country, are we a country built on a few fundamental principles or are we country that has been founded on feel good slogans?

More importantly what do you think the root of this country should be built upon?

I'll agree that the extent to which some of the combatants were "tortured" might have gone too far, given the circumstances. But as to the ends justifying the means, let me ask you this:

Theoretically, you have a terrorist in custody. He's part of a group that has pledged to detonate a dirty nuclear bomb in a major US city, and millions will die.

If you could torture this one person, and by that act, obtain information that could possibly save millions of innocent lives, would that not be justified?

It's a real shitty world out there, and a lot of people hate the US, and sometimes, you're going to have to get your hands dirty when dealing with those kind of people, if you want to get things done.