5 Freedoms You'd Lose in Health Care Reform

THEY NOT GONNA TAKE IT NO MO.

The US is not Canada, nor any Nordic countries for that matter. It's kinda an apples to oranges comparison. Even in the case of Canada the size of their federal government is a fraction of that of the United States. The nordic countries? State size at best. Think Georgia or Arkansas. Anyway, I would just suggest you check out The 5,000 Leap, I've got the audio book if you'd care for a copy. Or hell, just read about Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson. The US Constitution was a masterstroke, and is still relevant 200 years later.

Jefferson was way wise and forewarned of these ploys. he's probably thee most quoteworthy person in history. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff136301.html

Reading a bit about the bill, it'd seem that cash registers are deciding the logic again.

You know I was going to post this big long refutation of that piece of shit article. But then I had a change of heart. So I wrote this long rambling instead.

Basically, everything in that article was a steaming pile of shit. And I'm not just talking about the kind of shit you might find on the sidewalk where a dog got lazy. I'm talking about the kind of shit you get where a naked midget cracked out on crystal meth has just eaten a hundred burritos and then randomly jumps on a trampoline vaulting to head level just long enough to spray you in the face with a black gold consistency surprise.

The current bills being reviewed in the House and Senate have plenty of problems. It is likely they will continue change as America passes one of its most important pieces of legislation this century.

The bottom line is that America needs more than anything else is universal health care, or a public option at the bare minimum. By almost every standard, American health care is an exercise in abject failure.

Now as for the comments in this thread,

MSP that book sounds like it was written by a douche bag. I checked Wikipedia and I can't take anyone who has advocated the privatization of social security seriously. Also, I continue to be amused by your little outburst defending the principle of a small do-nothing government. Sorry, but in the real world Randian libertarianism doesn't fly. Why? Because it ignores the evidence. And the evidence says my country and every other country can administer health programs at half the cost with greater effectiveness and coverage. For all its fluster, libertarianism, especially that of the Randian vent, is a contradiction because while being anchored in a metaphysic of objective reality (hence, objectivism), it chooses to ignore the most empirical products of that reality: evidence.

And don't give me this crap about how such comparisons are apples to oranges. You point to all the differences to you want: geography, culture, politics, economy. Its all the same bullshit conservative obscurantism we've seen since the dawn of time. You want us to give up slaves? We can't because we're different *insert bullshit*. You want us to give women the right to vote? We can't because we're different *insert bullshit*. You want us to have universal health care *insert bullshit*.

Europe has over 800 million people and every country has some sort of public option or universal coverage. In Canada, coverage plans are done on the provincial level to ensure the program is manageable. It could be done on the state level in the United States to ensure such programs are manageable.

America isn't special. It's not different. It's not incomparable to any other country in the world. It's just fucking retarded.

It's like the Iraq War all over again. All the information is right in front of your face and you still have trouble making a good decision.

Oh, and for the record, I never even considered graduate studies in the states based purely on how poorly the health care is. I love my health care.

I understand where you're coming from, MSP, but I have a beef with your statement, "socialization of any kind moves us closer to tyranny." If that were true, countries such as Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden would be some of the worst places to live in. However, that's not the case--except for the horrible weather.

The problem is not socializing services that shouldn't have been privatized/monetized in the first place, but the fact that our system (i.e., our society, our culture, our way of life) is broken at every level. When making money trumps basic human rights... something's wrong. Need I remind you that the 9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution grant certain rights and powers to the people of the USA? I'd argue that good health is one of those rights.

As for those long lines at the DMV... when I renewed my license, it took me less than 20 minutes. I've been stuck in line at my local Wal-Mart for longer than that. And don't get me started on Black Friday @ Best Buy! When an establishment provides a service that people need or want, expect long lines at certain hours of the day.

BTW, when are people going to realize that when an industry's business model becomes obsolete or threatened, those who stand to lose the most will start cranking out propaganda to defend that said business model? The RIAA & MPAA and DRM, the telcos against Net Neutrality, the insurance companies against universal healthcare, the Theater Owners of America against Phonevision D), etc.

HAHA! Maybe in the midwest things are like that because it's less densely populated, but here in CT the DMV is always jam-packed and an angry place to be. It's obvious how much the employees hate their jobs, and a visit as simple as a change of address on your registration involves at least an hour wait and the patience of a saint.

They post "This is a non-violent place" signs at the Bridgeport DMV for a reason. It's a fucking horribly mismanaged system with incompetence spewing out the front door. It's set up like a deli from hell.

I don't want the government that set up that godawful place to be in control of my well-being. I don't like the direction this country is going in one bit.

I believe it. Here are some more lovely--and not the least bit sensationalistic--articles by Shawn Tully.

... and many, many people thought that was ridiculous as well.

When I came back from Vegas with bronchitis, I had to go to my local ER. Even though I could barely speak and was wheezing and struggling to breathe, I had to fill out a fucking form and wait half an hour to be taken care of. If that's the kind of treatment I'm gonna get either way, I'd rather pay less for it.

Let me use a phrase that has been recited to me by an ultraconservative.

"If you don't like it, why don't you move to another country?"

I hear the government of Somalia isn't worrying itself with little things like public education, health care and finance regulation, it's a Libertarians Paradise in this world of madness

(that's all I got for this thread right now)

Those pirates are true capitalists!

I lol'd

So Eavanr, you've previously praised the US Constitution. The writers of that document deliberately created the weakest republic they possibly could, trying to limit the power of the federal government to only those things that couldn't be handled by individuals or states. Were they wrong, or do you view health care as something that requires the intervention of a federal government?

I won't deny the current system is horribly broken, I just think we can fix it and offer coverage to those truly in need without going to this extreme.

Those freedoms were put to death quite a while back, by the Insurance Industry which makes dealing with the DMV look like child's play, when you actually need them to cover something and they find a reason not to cover it, or you can't get insurance because you already have something wrong. No long lines here, because Insurance companies won't let you through the door!

We've already lost those freedoms, but to private institutions, and in a way that they can hide the loss. It's insane the amount of money the insurance industry is pouring into this, through their front group, their individual lobbyists, and through paid lobbying firms. I wouldn't be surprised if the article above was written by one or another of these groups, then just "poured in" to this guy's article.

As to what the Founders envisioned, that was before the present, where one can get from one end of the continent to the other in the space of a day or two, affordably. One of the present problems is Insurance in one state will often get you nothing, if you are sick in another State.

granted, it is on yahoo, but the article is pretty stupid. i browsed through it quickly and the "losing my HSA" caught my eye. That point has no substance - "it may be priced out of the market." Gooooooood.
high deductible + HSA is the way to go if you're pretty healthy. I pay $80/mo for a $5k deductible that kicks in w/ 100% coverage. I ended up only spending $300 in the past year for an infected elbow. I have no problem with my personal experiences with healthcare

Then do it on the local level. This article (and most people's objections) are regarding doing it on the national level.

Isn't that a more regional thing with regards to how they're run? All the stuff like that (DMV, DPS, and county tax assesor's office) suck ass & takes forever in houston, but i can go into the tax office here and be out in 20 mins its so well run.

the text of the bill HR3200:
(Thomas.gov is your friend, make time to take time)
Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
The PDF:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

seems to have a macabre requirement with sinister encouragements on pages 424-425. i haven't had time to check the cross references to SSI regs and other HR's so my jury's still out on this one.

The Canadian Government currently spends 10.6% of its GDP on Health Care. ($5,333 per person)

The US Goverment currently spends 15.2% of its GDP on Health Care. ($7,012 per person)

You guys should have the best health care in the world based on that. The problem is your goverment can't do anything without padding 1000 pockets along the way and you have this private health care system that makes a huge profit of sick people.

Sure our health care system dosent cover all of the medical bills, in fact it only covers 71%. But it covers ALL medical procedures and visits that are deemed necessary and are performed in a hospital or by a physician.

I know your constitution is great and all but the three pillars of ours are Peace, Order and Good Government. I think the US needs a bit of the third.

My response was regarding the following post by MSP.

I was just refuting his statement generalizing the efficiency of government institutions vs. private businesses.

BTW, if big government is something to be fearful of, where were all those conservatives when it was revealed that Bush & Co. had a secret wiretapping program? Where were they when the Patriot Act got passed?

Goofus hit the nail in the head. Corporatism is rampant in America. Certain things should be owned by the government and/or the people. Services such as utilities, as well as phone lines and Internet pipes, which should be part of our infrastructure--like roads. Healthcare... is a basic right in any modern country that calls itself Democratic.

Something like this has to be done at the Federal level for it to work. Things would be uneven if it was left to each individual state.

In addition, one needs the larger pool of customers for the true bargaining clout with Pharmaceutical companies. Local efforts, and even most State efforts won't have this clout.

My only concern about all this, is how are we going to pay for it? The health care goals set by the Obama administration are basically competing against each other, and the high initial costs of this combined with the bad economy of the moment, kind of make this move a no-go at this time, to my blue-dawg democratic way of thinking.

You bet your ass it would be uneven if handled by the individual states, and that's a good thing. What fits and works for California or Florida wouldn't necessarily be right for Ohio or Wyoming. What they chose to cover and fund is their business, and visa versa. Why should my paycheck here in Cincinnati be taxed to provide health care to illegal immigrants in San Diego? State rights, state power. That's what we need to be striving towards. Corruption will always exist, but the local guys have to be a little more accountable.

The minor flaw in that argument is that the local guys will be accountable to the multinational business concerns, who can control State efforts, and swamp local efforts using the State, simply because the multinationals have more power than the local officials themselves.

I'm all for local governance, but if we are to have small government, we must have equally small businesses, so as not to unbalance the unnoticed and unofficial fourth branch of Government: lobbyists.

Here's another thread that ties in nicely with this one.

http://www.tweak3d.net/forums/off-topic/wheels-motion-46698/#post309951

MasterB having to wait a year to have a simple procedure done...

I'm glad you noticed I asked that question....."Why do you have to wait a year?"

That's more laziness, not really anything else. If you need something done, and it's actually important to you, you'd be willing to drive 2 hours to get it done quicker.