[MSP]

I gotta go with Superman on this one. Individual rights, freedom of worship, etc has to take a backseat to the welfare of a child. Assuming the story is true as presented, then yeah, I'm judging them. Idiots...

[-Sevendust-]

When I was in the hospital my grandparents did not want me to get a blood transfusion because they are jahova witnesses. They talked my mom into not letting me get it but thank god I just turned 18. I would be dead if it was up to them. Stupid fucks.

[superman]

Originally Posted by wheezer

I don't know why this is such a big deal....really.

This has been going on for eons. it goes on right now as we speak.

How many innocent babies are killed each year because of some idiot getting hammered and then behind the wheel of a car?...."awww....thats too bad....what a shame.....people really need to stop drinking and driving."

It happens so often, it does not even phase anyone anymore.

But a story like this....well, HOLY FUCKING COW!!!......BURN THE MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!

sad really......we find it to be more acceptable for an innocent child to die one way than we do another.....what's wrong with this picture?

What the fuck, read what you wrote and then read what I replied with. Your rebuttal is off topic. Everything I just quoted is what's wrong with the world.

[Wedge_]

Wheezer, calm down a bit and maybe you'll actually start making some sense instead of rambling about utterly irrelevant stuff like natural selection.

[wheezer]

Originally Posted by Wedge_

Wheezer, calm down a bit and maybe you'll actually start making some sense instead of rambling about utterly irrelevant stuff like natural selection.

do you believe in natural selection?

If you do then explain to me how this situation is not considered part of natural selection of the human species.

I bring it up because everyone that will condemn them most likely believes in the science of evolution and natural selection over what the Bible provides and what the subjects of the story believe. Therefore if you subscribe to that theory then understand this is part of the process in which you believe.....it's not all pretty but that is part of it.

Just because the OP and others thinking along the same line and view this through the narrow scope of egocentrism does not make it wrong.....unfortunate yes, but there are a lot worse things that happen to children than death.

If you think about it, what right does anyone have to tell these parents that what they did was wrong. As soon as you tell these people that their religion is wrong and they should be held accountable then you have opened Pandora's box and things will get a lot worse rather than a lot better.

Parents continuously for the sake of convenience jeopardize the lives of their children everyday when they feed them all the shit food that is out there, McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Little Debbie's, Mountain Dew....We KNOW from science that this type of continuous diet will wreak havoc on the body and do nothing but create health problems....yes even death such as causing a child going into a diabetic coma...... but day in and day out parents do it everyday.

So killing them slowly with a steady diet of fast food is ok, but when a parent makes a choice based on their religious beliefs, well that is just crossing the line.....someone should do something.... such as outlawing this religion and hold these people criminally responsible.

Sorry, thats bullshit.

[Wedge_]

Originally Posted by wheezer

do you believe in natural selection?

If you do then explain to me how this situation is not considered part of natural selection of the human species.

I bring it up because everyone that will condemn them most likely believes in the science of evolution and natural selection over what the Bible provides and what the subjects of the story believe. Therefore if you subscribe to that theory then understand this is part of the process in which you believe.....it's not all pretty but that is part of it.

No, it isn't, not unless you stretch the definition of "natural" so far that it becomes "artificial".

The whole point of natural selection is that any organism with hereditary defects that typically appear before the normal age of reproduction will be correspondingly less likely to reproduce compared to similar organisms without those defects. Especially in 1st world countries like the US, the role of natural selection in determining who is able to breed has been greatly reduced over time because of advances in medical science. People who are born with disabilities (or who develop them in childhood) are supported and cared for as much as possible, in many cases with the effect of prolonging their life far past the point where they would have "naturally" died, and in many cases giving them the opportunity to have kids. If we just let any kid who showed evidence of genetic defects die without any assistance, that would be much closer to the idea of natural selection than what currently happens, although I don't think it'd really count as "natural" since we'd be implicitly allowing it to happen.

If natural selection had truly been operating normally over the past few thousand years, it's quite possible some of the current crop of hereditary conditions would be gone, as people who had them would have been far less likely to survive. Diabetes is one of these conditions that seem to be influenced to some extent by the genetics of the parents, so it's arguable this girl might not even have been born had natural selection been playing an important role in her ancestors chances of reproduction. Fortunately or unfortunately for her, she was born, her family either refused to treat her illness or failed to understand what was wrong, and as a consequence she died.

The point is that it may have been a natural death but it was hardly an example of natural selection. Diabetes is a very treatable condition, and in other circumstances she could easily have survived to have children of her own, and possibly pass on to them the risk of developing the same condition. That's the very opposite of natural selection. I'm also not sure it even makes sense to talk about natural selection applied to a single individual in a single generation, given that it's a process that requires multiple generations to take place.

[Stevv]

Originally Posted by wheezer

So killing them slowly with a steady diet of fast food is ok, but when a parent makes a choice based on their religious beliefs, well that is just crossing the line.....someone should do something.... such as outlawing this religion and hold these people criminally responsible.

Sorry, thats bullshit.

Actually, killing them slowly with fast food is not ok by any means, but it sure is a looooong stretch from negligent homicide. I really don't get how you could conceivably compare them. In one instance, you have a fat kid with diabetes, in the other, you have a very dead child. And yes, if the family forgoes treatment for a very treatable condition such as diabetes, even for religious reasons, it should be charged as a criminal act.
I really would like to know whats going through the parents' mind when they prescribe prayer to treat an illness. It doesn't ever work. Ever. And it never has.

[ivanolo]

Don't any of you believe in miracles?!

[MSP]

Originally Posted by ivanolo

Don't any of you believe in miracles?!

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

[wheezer]

Originally Posted by Stevv

Actually, killing them slowly with fast food is not ok by any means, but it sure is a looooong stretch from negligent homicide. I really don't get how you could conceivably compare them. In one instance, you have a fat kid with diabetes, in the other, you have a very dead child. And yes, if the family forgoes treatment for a very treatable condition such as diabetes, even for religious reasons, it should be charged as a criminal act.
I really would like to know whats going through the parents' mind when they prescribe prayer to treat an illness. It doesn't ever work. Ever. And it never has.

but it sure is a looooong stretch from negligent homicide.

please tell me the difference. If you know that feeding your child a steady diet of junk food is going to kill them is that also not negligent?

What about pregnant women who continue to smoke is that not also negligent?

Women who drink while pregnant resulting in the death of their baby? is that not negligent?

In one instance, you have a fat kid with diabetes, in the other, you have a very dead child.

yes and without proper medical care AND proper diet one WILL lead to the other.

But in your eyes as long as a parent is getting the insulin for their child....but does not follow through with the administration of it AND continues to feed them a diet of crap....well thats ok because it is not about the follow through it is about outward perception.

I really would like to know whats going through the parents' mind when they prescribe prayer to treat an illness. It doesn't ever work. Ever. And it never has.

spoken like a true non-believer. which is who my natural selection statements are directed at. either you believe in natural selection ALL the time your you don't...you can't have it both ways.

You scorn these people because they put their faith in a god that you do not believe in, how many times have you heard about someone not seeking treatment because of cost, or inability to get there all of a sudden being cured with NO scientific explanation?

Rare I grant you but it does happen.

Science ALWAYS makes more sense than religion, but you cannot persecute someone simply because their religion chooses to ignore your science. Even if it does cost a life that you have no right to control what so ever.

[Wedge_]

Originally Posted by wheezer

You scorn these people because they put their faith in a god that you do not believe in, how many times have you heard about someone not seeking treatment because of cost, or inability to get there all of a sudden being cured with NO scientific explanation?

The obvious response to that one is "How many times have you heard about someone regrowing a lost limb?". God hates amputees, does he? We have a far from perfect understanding of what the human body is capable of, so it's hardly suprising that occasionally someone will make an unexpected recovery. While there may be no scientific explanation for some cases right now, that doesn't mean we won't discover an explanation for them in the future. There are many many instances throughout history of things that current crop of gods were thought to be responsible for; plagues, making the Sun come up each day, providing good harvests, etc etc. As time has gone on, we can now explain all of these things without resorting to primitive superstition. This is just another example of the "God of the Gaps" idea, where anything that is not currently explained through science is automatically claimed as the work of whichever god you happen to believe in.

Can I ask if you are religious or not?

[Stevv]

NO, junk food DOES NOT = NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. There is a difference. One, is letting your child die by withholding the necessary health care for no good reason, the other is letting your child eat crappy food, which sucks, but does not mean you are killing them, they are just unhealthy. And yes, pregnant women should neither smoke nor drink. But I don't get where that comes into this discussion.

And where did all this crappy food talk come from? The child in the photos looked quite skinny actually, I have no idea how she got diabetes.

I scorn them because it doesn't fucking work. Sure, someone gets a bad flu and then recovers miraculously and everyone praises Jesus but he really didn't have anything to do with your antibodies destroying those virus cells.

Withholding medical care because you think Jesus is going to heal your kid is the most idiotic thing ever. Really, go to a damn doctor. Does Jesus not want your child to have insulin? Is that witchcraft or something? I don't get it really.

[ivanolo]

MSP, just search the forums using the term "religion" and my username and you'll get your answer.

[MSP]

Meh, I'm lazy. I thought I remembered you were more of a science, common sense sorta guy. So I'm going to assume you were kidding.

[superman]

Not forcing your kids to exercise is murder!!!!!

[ivanolo]

Good guess!

[Coleman]

Last time I checked obesity related diseases are some of our top killers in America. You can take what I said out of context by saying a bad diet and no exercise won't kill you, but that isn't what I meant.

Sorry you can't control everyone and make them believe what you believe.

[j0k3r]

Originally Posted by wheezer

Science ALWAYS makes more sense than religion, but you cannot persecute someone simply because their religion chooses to ignore your science. Even if it does cost a life that you have no right to control what so ever.

That is the stupidest thing I have probably ever heard in my entire life. I believe in God and I am Christian, but I take my children to the doctor when they get sick because it is the responsible thing to do. I may not have control whether someone decides to murder their children through inaction (negligent homicide), but the law does.

Science and spirituality are not mutually exclusive in my opinion and for anyone who truly believes in God to suggest otherwise is retarded.

[SoulAssassin]

Originally Posted by wheezer

spoken like a true non-believer.

There's your answer in a nutshell.

[wheezer]

Originally Posted by j0k3r

That is the stupidest thing I have probably ever heard in my entire life. I believe in God and I am Christian, but I take my children to the doctor when they get sick because it is the responsible thing to do. I may not have control whether someone decides to murder their children through inaction (negligent homicide), but the law does.

Science and spirituality are not mutually exclusive in my opinion and for anyone who truly believes in God to suggest otherwise is retarded.

BUT as a believer you can understand where these people come from correct?

To them you do not beleive in the true power of god. You do not have a strong enough faith to put your life and the life of your children in his hands and trust his judgment.

If your child dies, it is his will, if your child lives it is his will.

So apparently you don't have enough faith in your god that he will do what is best....that is how you would be looked upon by these people.....in their eyes you would be wrong.

As science progresses more and more, the god you know through scripture becomes less and less plausible.


The Amish do not believe in modern medicine either, and so when one of theirs becomes sick like this they don't turn to hospitals or doctors, they put their faith in god also....are you concerned enough about all the Amish children that have dies to have the government step in and tell them how they MUST run their communities? Do you want them all arrested for child endangering?

At that point the government has become far more intrusive that any of us wants, because then it comes down to telling people what they can and cannot believe in...that is a slippery slope that we can never recover from.

It is unfortunate that this girl had to die, personally I do not agree with it, but the bigger picture is that the government should not in any way shape or form control someones religious beliefs. No matter how fucked up they are.