[Cr@cKpiPe tE@sEr noOb!]

So how about this scenario. Ford,GM, and Chrysler drop all their auto workers and start outsourcing for assembly workers. Build them oversea's at first and then gradually start building them here in the states with different workers the way the Japanese automakers have them. Are there laws that make US automakers pay those pension plans and benefits? How is it that the Japs avoid this while building here in the states, too?

[LOLBOMB]

because the nips dont put up with union bullshit. you unionized, suddenly you'll get laid off. "unexpected cuts". not fired, laid off!

[Goofus Maximus]

Mazda is unionized. They make good and competitive cars. You can thrive with Unions, as companies such as Mazda and Southwest Airlines does.

It's management of the big three that sucks dead bunnies through a soda straw. It's management who signs bad deals with Unions, and it's management that is more concerned with keeping next quarter's stock-price up than with long term strategies for staying on top. It's management that builds to lower standards (guaranteed to just barely squeak past the warrantee date) so that the profit margin can go to the shareholders (which are mostly mutual funds, who are themselves interested in short term stock prices, to lure in clients with their "above index" fund performance). It's management, earning 100's of times the compensation of it's workers, who reward themselves with "bonuses for saving the company money" by axing jobs right and left, and cutting into what wages and benefits they can (Personally, I call that last part "looting", pure and simple).

Unions and Management are collaborating on the demise of their companies, with each blaming the other for the failures that they've institutionalized into their system between them.

[LOLBOMB]

Originally Posted by Goofus Maximus

It's management of the big three that sucks dead bunnies through a soda straw. It's management who signs bad deals with Unions, and it's management that is more concerned with keeping next quarter's stock-price up than with long term strategies for staying on top. It's management that builds to lower standards (guaranteed to just barely squeak past the warrantee date) so that the profit margin can go to the shareholders (which are mostly mutual funds, who are themselves interested in short term stock prices, to lure in clients with their "above index" fund performance). It's management, earning 100's of times the compensation of it's workers, who reward themselves with "bonuses for saving the company money" by axing jobs right and left, and cutting into what wages and benefits they can (Personally, I call that last part "looting", pure and simple).

Unions and Management are collaborating on the demise of their companies, with each blaming the other for the failures that they've institutionalized into their system between them.

i think your generalization of how management is of the automotive industry is fanciful at best. if things were that easy shareholders would roll them out. i still side with the fact that unions present unprofitable demands and management can do nothing but take it.

[Jackalope]

i agree with ther above points.

the UAW fucked them, the ceo's and other fatcats fucked em, their cost cutting fucked em, also their failure to plan for the future fucked em.

most of the big 3's sales were from SUV's and trucks, however, since the oild problems gas went up, and now no one is interested in getting 12mpg, leaving the big3 with no wind in their sail. their cars were just there, with a mojority of sales attributed to "I only buy american" or "my truck was good, so I imagine my car will be too".

you can only skate by on that for so long

[LOLBOMB]

i agree that innovation and engineering at the big 3 has been stale for a long time. they need to do some business continuity analysis if they want to survive in the long run.

[Goofus Maximus]

Originally Posted by LOLBOMB

i think your generalization of how management is of the automotive industry is fanciful at best. if things were that easy shareholders would roll them out. i still side with the fact that unions present unprofitable demands and management can do nothing but take it.

That's management's line! While I'm generalizing, I'm not over-generalizing the short-term bias of US companies in the Auto industry. The truth is, they cooperated in their own ravishment, through short term appeasement, and mostly through a confrontational approach that put them and the unions at odds from the start, so that every contract dispute turns into a pissing contest. For instance, the medical insurance and pensions that is costing the Big 3 so much right now, is something they threw in when times were good, to appease the unions with lower wages, which (at the time) was a better deal for management. Now they have to pay the price for all this, when times aren't good.

As for shareholders, most of these are large mutual fund companies, who are themselves interested in short term profits and maintaining share prices to the exclusion of long-term interests. Instead of rolling them out, they just sell their shares, and finance "merger mania" takeovers, like that of Daimler-Chrysler. Looking at the ownership charts of these companies can give one a headache, when you realize how much of the competition owns the Big 3, and how much the Big 3 owns of the competition.

Long term research into fuel efficiency has been underfunded by the big three, while they went for flash and mass, to sell items and bulk up their share prices in the short term. Engineering went into shaving the line as close to the warrantee as they could get it, instead of producing higher quality machines, and selling with flashy features instead.

I repeat, it was management and union together, who orchestrated the current mess, the way the IRA and Protestant militias cooperated in wrecking the peace in Northern Ireland. They are adversaries who want to continue the same thing, which is killing the opposing side, without interferrance of nambypamby moderates and peaceniks. It's a brotherhood of adversarialism, where management is THE ENEMY to the workforce, and the workforce is THE ENEMY to management.