[ivwshane]

A good documentary of "bush's war"

FRONTLINE: bush's war | PBS

You can view it online as well.

[krod]

Is that what I watched last night on PBS last night? I caught it in the middle. If so, that was amazing. Gen Frank wasn't interviewed but his advisors were saying at one point he finally said fuck it I quit. A two star wouldn't make that claim about a four star without his approval, both retired or not. And then the civilian wanker in charge saying he couldn't remember if his generals and CIA analysts told him breaking up the Bath party and the Iraqi military was going to have catastrophic results? History is being made friends. Everyone should watch this.

[Torx]

how many crimes has this cuntbag done already?
how many times have i read "reason for impeachment"

now, why the fuck is this guy still in office???
why is he not dead?

[mistawiskas]

Because the people the guvanmont is supposed to regulate, now regulate the guvarnment that is supposed to regulate them....and it is not "we-the-peepole".

[smirnoff]

Cool, my friend was just mentioning this doc to me the other day. Thanks for posting it.

[MSP]

Bush certainly appears to be a bumble-fuck, but the real ramifications of what he's done won't be known for a long time. Nixon was (rightfully) lauded as a crook and a monster, and yet history has shown that he was actually a pretty damn good president. Sometimes it just takes an asshole doing unpopular things. History is littered with examples of presidents that were hated in their day and yet their accomplishments served a purpose.

[Goofus Maximus]

I don't think history will be equally kind to Bush. The long term results of the years of "going our own way", dumping treaties just because we feel like it, and violating our own moral codes by doing to others what we would prosecute if others did it to us, are going to be nothing but negative.

It's interesting to learn how Rumsfeld almost screwed up the Afghan war by leaving the CIA operatives hanging till he got the "I'm in charge" affirmation from Bush... and I especially love how Condoleeza Rice had to do "covert operations", sending in one of her aids in his military uniform to the Pentagon, just to find out what she needed to know from the Pentagon.

[HEAVY-D]

*Opening a can of worms*

I don't think Saddam Hussein was worth one American life.

Let the games begin!

Anyway, I saw part of it and it's good but too little too late.

[MSP]

True, but we didn't go into Iraq because of Saddam. That was just the given reason.

[ThatHideousStrength]

"Higher gas prices are a sign of a failed presidency." - Dick Cheney, 1998

[MSP]

We've debated this before, it's a re-hash. Gas prices could have gone up, perhaps even more, had we not invaded. Without the ability to travel to alternate universes we'll never know. I'll just be glad for Bush to finally go away. There were too many fuck ups for me to defend him with a straight face. And I'm tired of the bitching. One thing is for sure, whoever ends up in the Whitehouse next will likely look like a super star no matter what they do.

[tex]

Originally Posted by Goofus Maximus

I don't think history will be equally kind to Bush. The long term results of the years of "going our own way", dumping treaties just because we feel like it, and violating our own moral codes by doing to others what we would prosecute if others did it to us, are going to be nothing but negative.

Look a Teddy's "walk softly and carry a big stick" policies. Like it was mentioned before, lots of presidents were hated during their time yet looked upon favorably by history. People are just getting stupidly irrational now - look at my other post about impeaching Bush over Bear Stearns. If anything, people need to be pissed that congress and the supreme court bent over and kissed his ass on demand. All these asshats going on about how the Dems are going to change everything are idiots. Its going to be more or less the same.

[ivwshane]

Originally Posted by Goofus Maximus

It's interesting to learn how Rumsfeld almost screwed up the Afghan war by leaving the CIA operatives hanging till he got the "I'm in charge" affirmation from Bush... and I especially love how Condoleeza Rice had to do "covert operations", sending in one of her aids in his military uniform to the Pentagon, just to find out what she needed to know from the Pentagon.

Here is the thing though, we didn't win in Afghanistan, we had the opportunity to close the deal by the end of 2002 and the cia had it's troop support pulled! Had we focused on Afghanistan 100% and not had this cross department cock fight I'm almost positive we would have dealt a major blow to al queda and most likely killed osama.



Can you imagine if the iraq invasion never happened? Can you imagine osama being killed by 2003?


I used to hate Powell for his damn UN speech because I thought he had sold out America but he himself was pushed under the bus by not only the bush admin but also by George Tenant who really could have either stopped this whole mess or slowed things down considerably.

Any one else get the impression that Rice is/was totally incompetent for what her job was supposed to be? I mean she basically laid down for cheney and rumsfield.



This is some good stuff!
I also finally realize why people don't want to impeach bush, they realize just how much power cheney has over bush and if cheney were to be president it would be disastrous. I still don't understand why they wouldn't just impeach cheney at the very least.

[ivwshane]

Originally Posted by tex

If anything, people need to be pissed that congress and the supreme court bent over and kissed his ass on demand. All these asshats going on about how the Dems are going to change everything are idiots. Its going to be more or less the same.

No, if any department should get scrutiny it should be the doj (specifically john yoo) for interpreting and signing off on the various power grabbing interpretations this administration has asked for leading the way for such things as gitmo and the whole iraq invasion. Congress was mislead just like the american people and like others high up in the administration that opposed any iraq invasion. That is why at the very least cheney should be impeached.

[ivwshane]

This page has a nice chronological view of the events including the first gulf war.
FRONTLINE: bush's war: video timeline | PBS

[tex]

Originally Posted by ivwshane

No, if any department should get scrutiny it should be the doj (specifically john yoo) for interpreting and signing off on the various power grabbing interpretations this administration has asked for leading the way for such things as gitmo and the whole iraq invasion. Congress was mislead just like the american people and like others high up in the administration that opposed any iraq invasion. That is why at the very least cheney should be impeached.

And it bothers congress so much that they are vehemently fighting against it now...

I think they could've looked into it a little more rather than giving a blind nod to the administration.

[ivwshane]

Originally Posted by tex

And it bothers congress so much that they are vehemently fighting against it now...

I think they could've looked into it a little more rather than giving a blind nod to the administration.

Believe me I'm not saying congress has no fault and should be let off the hook but if they are getting doctored intelligence from the top where are they supposed to go for a counter point?

The biggest issue I have is that congress not only gave authorization but they also gave unilateral power for Bush to do what ever he wants and they only reason (or main reason) they did this was because Bush asked for it right before the elections (another well played and sneaky move by this admin, it's common practice now).

As far as them not doing anything now, again there isn't much they can do, the dems don't have enough power to muscle anything through (at least not without getting so watered down it becomes pointless) and even if they do get something through bush will veto it.

Like the American people their hands are tied. Which is why I want a complete clean slate for the office of the president. It's not necessarily the president I'm worried about, it's the people he will be picking to advise him that scares me.
Bush could have been a decent president had he just had a completely different cabinet surrounding him. That's why I don't want a Mccain or Hilary, the chances of them picking or relying on information from the same group bush does is pretty high.

[mistawiskas]

Bush? Try congress:
(E-mail I got)

The next time you hear a politician use the word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about whether you want the 'politicians' spendingYOUR tax money.
A billion is a difficult number to comprehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in one of its releases.


A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959.

B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.

C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age.

D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.

E. A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.

While this thought is still fresh in our brain, let's take a look at New Orleans It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division

Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D), is presently asking the Congress for $250 BILLION to rebuild New Orleans. Interesting number, what does it mean?

A. Well, if you are one of 484,674 residents of New Orleans (every man, woman, child), you each get $516,528.

B. Or, if you have one of the 188,251 homes in New Orleans , your home gets $1,329,787.

C. Or, if you are a family of four, your family gets $2,066,012.

Washington, D.C .. HELLO!!! ... Are all your calculators broken??

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Perm it Tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax),
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax),
Liquor Tax,
Luxury Tax,
Marriage License Tax,
Medicare Tax,
Property Tax,
Real Estate
Tax,
Service charge taxes,
Social Security Tax,
Road Usage Tax (Truckers),
Sales Taxes,
Recreational Vehicle Tax,
School Tax,
State Income Tax,
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA),
Telephone Federal Excise Tax,
Telephone
Federal Universal Service Fee Tax,
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax,
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax,
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax,
Telephone State and Local Tax,
Telephone Usage Charge Tax,
Utility Tax,
Vehicle License
Registration Tax,
Vehicle Sales Tax,
Watercraft Registration Tax,
Well Permit Tax,
Workers Compensation Tax.

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What happened? Can you spell 'politicians!'

And I still have to 'press 1' for English.

[Goofus Maximus]

Originally Posted by tex

Look a Teddy's "walk softly and carry a big stick" policies. Like it was mentioned before, lots of presidents were hated during their time yet looked upon favorably by history. People are just getting stupidly irrational now - look at my other post about impeaching Bush over Bear Stearns. If anything, people need to be pissed that congress and the supreme court bent over and kissed his ass on demand. All these asshats going on about how the Dems are going to change everything are idiots. Its going to be more or less the same.

Yup. But Bush has done anything but walk softly, and spent too much time SWINGING the big stick instead of just carrying it. Of course Congress bent over, because Bush whipped up a frenzy of the worst sort of "Patriotism" among the people, so that they would riot against anyone who protested, like Linda Rondstadt in Las Vegas, or the furor over the Dixie Chicks.

Having mentioned Teddy Roosevelt, I should point out that the Spanish American war, in which he fought as a Rough Rider, is probably another war that has not stood the test of time.

[tex]

Originally Posted by ivwshane

Believe me I'm not saying congress has no fault and should be let off the hook but if they are getting doctored intelligence from the top where are they supposed to go for a counter point?

The biggest issue I have is that congress not only gave authorization but they also gave unilateral power for Bush to do what ever he wants and they only reason (or main reason) they did this was because Bush asked for it right before the elections (another well played and sneaky move by this admin, it's common practice now).

As far as them not doing anything now, again there isn't much they can do, the dems don't have enough power to muscle anything through (at least not without getting so watered down it becomes pointless) and even if they do get something through bush will veto it.

Like the American people their hands are tied. Which is why I want a complete clean slate for the office of the president. It's not necessarily the president I'm worried about, it's the people he will be picking to advise him that scares me.
Bush could have been a decent president had he just had a completely different cabinet surrounding him. That's why I don't want a Mccain or Hilary, the chances of them picking or relying on information from the same group bush does is pretty high.

Bush had "intelligence from the top" on the whole thing too; that was the precedent for going in.

And the Democrats are just as at fault as the republicans, don't give me that. They only get all vocal and whiney about the war when the election cycle comes near.

I can see McCain maybe getting some of the same people as Bush, but Hilary? No fucking way. The woman wants the socialist states of America.

On the same note: Obama finally published a "detailed" economic policy. What a crock of shit. Half of it is more of the same generalities, the other parts are either his same generalities or a great shot in the dark - in the wrong direction (see the his whole mortage 'solutions')

[ATIzed]

This war could have been useful, prosperous, and advantageous for