[Pope John]

so, i'm leaving for my deployment in a couple weeks. and pretty much the biggest thing on my mind is how I'm going to spend my money when i return (got my priorities straight, i know...)


anyways, i've been reading up a lot about the new '09 Jetta TDI. It looks really sweet. I mean, I've always thought about a jetta as a chick car, but with a turbo diesel pulling 236 ft-lbs. of torque on a 1-ton sedan seems so bad ass. And my biggest attraction to it has to be the cruising range, and overall mpg.

the EPA released dismal mpg estimates, i think 41 mi/hwy. So VW hired AMCI to doa third party test which received 44 mi/hwy. However, people online (which may have some bias) are claiming to get near 60 mi/hwy so long as they drive conservatively and go 65mph. Others online are claiming to drive with a lead foot and still average 46-52 both city and highway driving.

i dunno though. i heard about subaru releasing a clean diesel in Europe, but all i can find is about the Forester XT. Which really doesn't meet my desired performance as far as gas mileage.

I'm a guy that likes to drive a lot, and far distances... I rack close to 300 miles every weekend commuting home. So I desperately need a fuel efficient vehicle. I dunno, I guess I'm just asking if you guys have heard of any other fuel savers? I'd probably even settle for a Prius if it proves to be leaps and bounds ahead of the TDI.

I mean, the Prius takes regular unleaded, right? Who knows what the price gap between ULSD and 87 octane is gonna be 8 months from now... or the price gap between the TDI and prius. But, man, I don't think I oculd see myself in a prius... at least I imagine a jetta to have a bit more comforts as far as power and interior amenities.


any thoughts?

[tweakmonkey]

Originally Posted by Pope John

so, i'm leaving for my deployment in a couple weeks. and pretty much the biggest thing on my mind is how I'm going to spend my money when i return (got my priorities straight, i know...)


anyways, i've been reading up a lot about the new '09 Jetta TDI. It looks really sweet. I mean, I've always thought about a jetta as a chick car, but with a turbo diesel pulling 236 ft-lbs. of torque on a 1-ton sedan seems so bad ass.

A lot of torque, but not a lot of horsepower, which means it won't be fast (chipped they're not bad) or rev high. It will have good throttle response and low-end power, but it won't be as fast as a gas turbo car or bigger gas motor. Also they weigh a lot more than 1-ton, more like 3200 I think.

the EPA released dismal mpg estimates, i think 41 mi/hwy. So VW hired AMCI to doa third party test which received 44 mi/hwy. However, people online (which may have some bias) are claiming to get near 60 mi/hwy so long as they drive conservatively and go 65mph. Others online are claiming to drive with a lead foot and still average 46-52 both city and highway driving.

EPA estimates are pretty conservative and include a number of tests that are not really normal for most people's driving (Beating the EPA - The Why’s and How to Hypermile - CleanMPG Forums). I wouldn't be surprised if you got 50 MPG out of it on the highway, but 60 MPG stock seems far fetched unless you're driving 55 while traffic around you is doing 70. I can get an extra 20 MPG out of my Insight by driving like that, but it's impossible without angering people around you (and it takes a lot longer to reach some destinations ).

Given all of that, the TDI still gets great gas mileage. It's too bad diesel costs so more than unleaded (15-25% more here per gallon). I imagine it'll be that way for a long time. When the gas prices spiked over $4.00, diesel pulled over $5.00/gallon, always maintaining a ratio over unleaded.

I'm a guy that likes to drive a lot, and far distances... I rack close to 300 miles every weekend commuting home. So I desperately need a fuel efficient vehicle. I dunno, I guess I'm just asking if you guys have heard of any other fuel savers? I'd probably even settle for a Prius if it proves to be leaps and bounds ahead of the TDI.

I mean, the Prius takes regular unleaded, right? Who knows what the price gap between ULSD and 87 octane is gonna be 8 months from now... or the price gap between the TDI and prius. But, man, I don't think I oculd see myself in a prius... at least I imagine a jetta to have a bit more comforts as far as power and interior amenities.

Prius would cost a bit more new, but probably hold its value better. Look at some used prices to see what I mean. The gas mileage of the two cars is comparable: you can hypermile a Prius and get really high MPG as well. The gas is cheaper for a Prius. I imagine both are very reliable, but I haven't owned either.

Don't image the Prius' power or interior -- see/drive one in person. With the electric assist, hybrids have a ton of torque down low and decent acceleration at higher speeds. Also, the Prius has a really nice/comfy/luxurious interior. It's not a stripped down Toyota Tercel or something.

any thoughts?

Drive both, and if you buy the Volkswagen buy it used and you'll save a lot of money. I don't think you'll save a whole lot buying a used Prius right now, but somehow TDIs have flown somewhat under the radar.

Also look at the Honda Civic Hybrid.

Or if you only need 2-seats, buy an Insight like I did.

[Pope John]

the only weight figure i could find stated 2,250; maybe kilograms but i doubt it.

and in my opinion: horsepower is kind of a bullshit figure to go after when you're talking about diesels... because it operates on a lower power band and RPM than the typical gas car.

I'm definitely test driving them this weekend if I can get my hands on them in a stick shift.

as far as buying a used car versus a new one. I know that I may as well be setting $2,000 on fire for buying a brand new car. But a used car, even just a couple years old is so unsettling for me. I don't trust a car that someone got tired of 2-4 years after owning it...

plus, I want to know proof-positive that no one has: smoked, been naked, accidentally put 87 octane in a diesel, driven the fuck out of, improperly maintained; my car.

If I'm going to dump more than $2,000 on a nice car, I want it to last a long long time. And I know if I am the sole owner, I could make it last.

PLUS PLUS: I'm a turbo diesel mechanic. Not saying I'd be willing to tear into an engine like this, but that because I know a fair amount about the operation of turbo diesel engines, I could definitely treat it right.

Oh, and I'm really really not a big fan of the prius body. that's my biggest bias. not a fan of the jetta much either, but if i got the sportwagen, then at least i could probably fold down the rear seats and have a make-shift bed, or cargo area. Too bad the sportwagen is $2,000 more.

[tweakmonkey]

Hmm, not sure where that number came from but IMO there's no way that thing weighs 2250 lbs. VWs are notoriously porky cars. They have plush interiors, heavy exteriors, tons of safety equipment, and the Jetta isn't a small car. I'd bet a kidney that it's over 3000 lbs, if not 3200+.

If horsepower didn't matter, all those big diesel trucks would run 10 second quarter miles, but most (stock) are about as fast as a minivan. Torque's great for pulling the weight of a car up hills, accelerating from low speeds, etc, but it won't make it have stellar acceleration (it would be good if you chipped it though). It will be a lot like a gas car with more horsepower and less torque. A diesel Jetta has as much torque as a bunch of Ferraris, Porsches, and so-on, that would utterly destroy it in a race.

It sounds like you've made up your mind and a diesel Jetta is a good choice. If you buy one, CHIP it and it'll be quite fast. I was just suggesting you drive a bunch of cars before throwing yourself into debt.

If you're a mechanic I thought you'd be much more likely to purchase a used car. Even gas cars typically go over 200k miles before issues arise with most components and diesels tend to last even longer.

EDIT - I don't know how the resale value of the VWs are, but you might not lose much at all buying one new now anyway. I just think used cars are an infinitely better bargain than new and I've seen many people I know buy hundreds of used cars without problems, so long as they know what to look for.

[Jishory]

get an 06 without the particulate filter to deal with... because they are the newest diesel you can get without the particulate filter, basically diesel is injected into the filter in cycles to burn off the particulates about once a minute, and at intervals like 100,000 miles they need to be changed, which can cost thousands of dollars, so your going to get worse fuel economy and its gonna cost you alot to get it replaced. offsetting the money you would be saving in the long run by buying a diesel. around here diesel costs around the same as 91 octane, even though at one time this year is was a dollar more per gallon then regular Diesel particulate filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i crunched the numbers and figured diesel would need to be like 2.50$ more per gallon to be breaking even, it was a while ago though so i dont remember specifically, but if that price gap is going to scare people away from buying the good cars, great

i have a few friends that have the tdi's and they get about 60mpg on long distance highway driving with the cruise control set at 80, particularly to vegas, lets see a gasoline hybrid do that plus they go as fast as you want, they may not accelerate like a v8 but you wont be down shifting when you hit a hill because of that torque, and your looking at like 500 miles to a tank, they are road trip machines

diesel

[tweakmonkey]

Originally Posted by Jishory

i have a few friends that have the tdi's and they get about 60mpg on long distance highway driving with the cruise control set at 80, particularly to vegas, lets see a gasoline hybrid do that l

Priuses don't get nearly that high stock, but the hypermilers are up there. I got 68.8 MPG (I went 690 miles on a 10 gallon tank) last time I drove more than 100 miles to SoCal, but I was only doing about 65. I don't know what I'd get at 80... My car's only a 2-seater Insight though, not a Prius.

I met a guy at an EV meet who got 97 MPG over a 50 mile drive to the event, but he had some mods to his Insight.

Diesels are definitely sweet. If only the US wasn't so strict on emissions we'd have some really cool / smaller cars from more manufacturers instead of just a handful of VWs.

I'd wait for this one in TDI if I was in the market:
VW working on mid-engine Lotus fighter

[nidex]

TDI's are the shit. My friend used to have a '03 with chip, injectors and exhaust that ran a 15.2, which is a large improvement over the stock 17.7 time. And he got about 60mpg.

[b00gerflick3r]

Bah...



All the power you will ever need while better on gas than any hybrid.

[tweakmonkey]

Originally Posted by b00gerflick3r

Bah...



All the power you will ever need while better on gas than any hybrid.

Definitely lots of power, but the mileage is comparable or worse. I doubt that bike gets 50+ MPG with 500cc+

Then there's the other limitations...
-Seating for one, maybe two
-No protection on hot days, snow, or rain
-No room for cargo
-Extremely dangerous

Bikes are cool, don't get me wrong. But that's really apples to oranges isn't it?

[tweakmonkey]

Originally Posted by nidex

TDI's are the shit. My friend used to have a '03 with chip, injectors and exhaust that ran a 15.2, which is a large improvement over the stock 17.7 time. And he got about 60mpg.

Can you still run more boost than that? Low 15s is pretty amazing for that mileage. *ponders*

[b00gerflick3r]

Yeah but the guy is deploying for the military I'm guessing so his ass will be in more danger off the bike anyway. As far as mileage goes, it depends how you ride. I can easily squeeze 45-50 mpg out of my 800cc if I'm conscious of it.

[tweakmonkey]

Originally Posted by b00gerflick3r

Yeah but the guy is deploying for the military I'm guessing so his ass will be in more danger off the bike anyway. As far as mileage goes, it depends how you ride. I can easily squeeze 45-50 mpg out of my 800cc if I'm conscious of it.

This is true, maybe that's why Mav rode..

[nidex]

Originally Posted by tweakmonkey

Can you still run more boost than that? Low 15s is pretty amazing for that mileage. *ponders*

That was when he was nice to it. If I remember right(he got rid of it ~3 years ago) he was at 24ish? I don't think the stock turbo is really useful much past that. It was fun to drive though, torque can be entertaining.

[Jishory]

i'll just wait to decide when i get back, obviously. i don't think i'm even going to invest too much effort into researching it now, because byt he time i get back, gas will probably be up in the $5.00 range, with ULSD a dollar more, possibly...

this is pope john btw.