[OcTaNe91]

when i was at the indy 500 they drove a corvette than ran on e85 fuel, the IRL runs all their cars on 95% ethanol and (i think) 5% racing fuel (so people dont drink the ethanol) and that it reduces green house gases and that it is a renewable resource. this got me thinking, if we are still burning a fuel to provide power isnt it still giving off green house gasses? is bio fuel nothing more than propaganda for the stupid drivers in the world who think their doing something for the environment? is this just postponing the inevitable?

[Jishory]

i have heard that it takes more fossil fuels to create a certain amount of ethanol then the ethanol replaces, the carbon that is in the ethanol the plant took out of the atmosphere as it was growing so it isnt adding any extra greenhouse gases and such to the atmosphere like fossil fuels does. i think the reason they run ethanol in race cars is because of its very high octane.

[ninefivezero]

The entire ethanol industry in our country is corrupt, it is not a good example of the possibilities of bio-fuels.

Getting ethanol from corn is amazingly inefficient, but politicians from corn producing states got the legislation passed that states we must produce a certain amount of it. The truth is you can get more ethanol with less energy input out of all sorts of prairie grasses, algae, and so on.

[JustinL]

I think we only get 1.2 units of energy from ethanol for each unit of energy we put in. Sugar cane ethanol is far better at something like 8:1, but it does not really grow well in a lot of places in this country.

[HEAVY-D]

Ethanol seemed like a good thing at the time but the backlash has been catastrophic in terms of rising food prices. ATM ethanol = scam.

[sims]

Originally Posted by ninefivezero

The entire ethanol industry in our country is corrupt, it is not a good example of the possibilities of bio-fuels.

Getting ethanol from corn is amazingly inefficient, but politicians from corn producing states got the legislation passed that states we must produce a certain amount of it. The truth is you can get more ethanol with less energy input out of all sorts of prairie grasses, algae, and so on.

QFT unfortunely.

Well car enthusiast like myself like E85 due to having better anti knock properties(100+ octane rating) its by no means the environmental and anti-oil dependency cure its trying to be make out to be.

The biggest issue I see is that it doesn’t ultimately solve any problem’s. if E85 replaced oil we would no longer be so oil dependent as a nation, but we would then become dependent on corn and the farming industry. As it stands the prices of foods are hitting all time highs and there are food shortages around the world, doesn’t seem like a great idea to me.

There are examples of good biofuel’s though, such as biodiesel for an example.

[OcTaNe91]

Originally Posted by sims

There are examples of good biofuel’s though, such as biodiesel for an example.

but bio diesel is made from cooking oil, so it is still a food product no? it seems to me that any form of fuel (other than solar/wind/moving water) would cause some harm to the environment or economy. if we switch to hydrogen cars we will have more water in the atmosphere causing more precipitation causing flooding and so on. if we use soybean, sugar cane, corn, or any other form of ethanol we are over stretching an already limited crop supply, if we continue to use fossil fuels we put Co2 in the atmosphere causing more green house gases.

everyone says hybrids are the solution. for short term fuel costs yes, for long term environmental costs we are nailing our own coffin

am i mis understanding?

[JustinL]

with hydrogen cells, you get the hydrogen from the air, so there would be no real change in the atmosphere.


I agree with you about hybrids. I would like to see how much energy it takes to produce a hybrid and run it for 10 years compared to how much energy to produce a normal car and drive it for 10 years. I imagine there would not be a huge difference, but I don't know.


In my opinion, the REAL solution is to not become dependent on ONE energy source. I believe diesel engines are the answer, they will run on almost anything. You can run them on dino diesel, bio diesel, kerosene, jet fuel, jack daniels, pretty much any hydrocarbon. Currently, we are dependent on oil. A few Arabs decide they want a new mansion built so they raise the price of oil, what do we have an alternative to turn to? Now, if we get 1/5 of our fuel from corn crops, 1/5 from soybean. 1/5 from sugar cane, and 2/5 from oil, when the price of oil goes up, people will purchase more corn/soy/sugar fuels, which would create a surplus of dino fuel and drive the cost down. I just used cars as an example, but it applies to all energy consumption. We need to have a large diversity from an energy standpoint. I believe this includes nuke-u-lar, solar, wind, hydro, and as many others as we can.


BTW, I saw something the other day that said when 5% of a nuclear fuel rod has been consumed, the rod is no longer useful. There is some research on recovering the other 95% of usable material, but obviously not enough.

[sims]

Originally Posted by OcTaNe91

but bio diesel is made from cooking oil, so it is still a food product no? it seems to me that any form of fuel (other than solar/wind/moving water) would cause some harm to the environment or economy. if we switch to hydrogen cars we will have more water in the atmosphere causing more precipitation causing flooding and so on. if we use soybean, sugar cane, corn, or any other form of ethanol we are over stretching an already limited crop supply, if we continue to use fossil fuels we put Co2 in the atmosphere causing more green house gases.

everyone says hybrids are the solution. for short term fuel costs yes, for long term environmental costs we are nailing our own coffin

am i mis understanding?

No, your on the right track, there is no perfect easy readily available simple solution ready for mass consumption yet. Everything we are doing right now are simply attempts to lesses the impacts and costs well a proper solution is worked out.


JustinL, I agree completely. Diesel might not be the ultimately long term answer, but it sure opens up alot of very good options not offered with gas engines. in the next couple years i'm hoping to have my diesel running on SVO/WVO.

[ninefivezero]

I think the answer in the short term is plug-in hybrids.

They will be able to run around 200 miles on just the electric engine, no fuel needed. That alone would reduce most peoples oil usage by around 95%; since most trips are under 20 miles they would never need to burn fuel at all.

And even if your electricity is by burning coal (which sucks) its still more efficient than individual gas engines in every car from my understanding of it. If we can work up to more wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, wave and all the others, that would mean running your car with almost no carbon producing fuel at all.

And damn it sims, post in my new car thread

[MSP]

Originally Posted by ninefivezero

I think the answer in the short term is plug-in hybrids.

They will be able to run around 200 miles on just the electric engine, no fuel needed. That alone would reduce most peoples oil usage by around 95%; since most trips are under 20 miles they would never need to burn fuel at all.

And even if your electricity is by burning coal (which sucks) its still more efficient than individual gas engines in every car from my understanding of it. If we can work up to more wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, wave and all the others, that would mean running your car with almost no carbon producing fuel at all.

QFT. I think the Chevy Volt is the proto-type of what cars will look like for the foreseeable future. With an electric car people will be able to produce their own fuel, via everything from solar panels to hydro-electric to wind mills.

I won't be buying a 1st generation Volt, and I'm actually hoping that Honda or Toyota will have a similar offering before I'm ready to buy. But in the mean time I'll be putting an over-sized solar array (and possibly a wind mill too) on my roof so that when I am ready to buy I will be completely energy independent.